Historian Steve Gillon relayed a story in History Channel's "Lee Harvey Oswald: 48 Hours to Live" where Oswald called Ruth Paine twice, one call right after the other, and repeated the same statements almost verbatim. https://streamable.com/nt5rh0
Re Hurt: text says that Hurt claimed that he had not done any counterintelligence work after leaving the Army in 1954, but the photo shows Hurt and other soldiers at a graduation ceremony on June 18, 1957.
Now I’ve checked.early in vol 3 of WC Hearings Ruth Paine says that Lee called her twice first time around 3:30 to ask her to call Abt. The second time around 9 in the evening to talk to Marina. Not happy that she was not still there.
I reported to the FBI that a friend and Confidential Source overheard a conversation in Quito Ecuador, at the time of the assassination a friend of the family, a Navy Commander over his strong radio saying "Dallas... can you see the motorcade... Is it over yet?" I believe it will come out in the documentary of my knowledge of the plot to kill President Kennedy. The FBI secretary at Tampa Headquarters in 91 who copied her written statement was impressed because her father was AID/CIA in South America.
From recent talks with my friend it is clear that Commander May was Naval Intelligence because he was disappointed when Che was assassinated because he was expected to interrogate him.
Have to dissent on the notion that it is "bizarre" the FBI and Hoover - or is that redundant in 1963/64? - had no interest in Oswald's "communist ties," since the FBI was paying Oswald to inform on the anti-Castro and pro-Castro groups, and to keep them advised about attempts to run guns to Cuba, they would have been investigating themselves!
See also Marina Oswald Porter's September 17, 1997 letter to the Assassinations Records Review Board, where she states she is convinced Oswald informed on the Lawrence Miller - Donnell Whittier armed robbery of a National Guard armory in Terrell, Texas (arrested on November 18, 1963, later convicted) and that he visited the Dallas FBI offices the week of the assassination, not to "make threats" to the FBI, but warn them of threats to JFK.
Here's Hosty's wiki bio, this perpetrates the nonsense about Oswald "meeting Kostikov /Kostin" in Mexico City, but that's par for the course on Wikipedia.
LOL, Oswald was an FBI informant, as were many of the so-called "communist contacts" he knew, judging by later revelations. Possibly Oswald had realized he was being framed as a shooter (he shot no one at all that day) and figured he could divulge some of what he knew about the most likely plotters against both himself and JFK.
Naturally Oswald would want to contact John Abt, an attorney who had defended hundreds of victims of the unconstitutional McCarran Act, and victims of the unconstitutional Smith Act, besides helping build the labor movement through the CIO.
In the 1930s as fascists rose to power in Germany, Italy, and Spain, as well as organizing American fascist sympathizers, it was the Communist Party of the United States of America and other communists, mostly Trotskyists, and leftists who stood up against them, including as members of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade in the Spanish Civil War. The American right-wing supported the fascists in Europe, vilified the popular US president Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and hoped to install a fascist regime in the then apartheid state of the USA. American corporations were stubbornly collaborating with Hitler throughout the 1930s, and some even after Pearl Harbor.
Excerpt: "After leaving the Agricultural Adjustment Administration Abt held posts in the Works Projects Administration (WPA) and the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). In 1937 he became chief counsel to the Senate Civil Liberties Committee, under Robert La Follette, investigating corporate espionage against the Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO).
In 1938 Abt became chief counsel to Sidney Hillman, president of the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America (ACWA). For the next ten years, Abt was Hillman's main political operative within the CIO. According to Michael Myerson: "He (Apt) first conceived the notion of political action committees (PACs) and established CIO-PAC (for which he also served as chief counsel) to build organized labor's political influence."
After the Second World War Abt became chief counsel of the Progressive Party, the vehicle for Henry Wallace, who was its candidate in the 1948 Presidential Elections. In 1950 Apt and Vito Marcantonio were hired by the American Communist Party to defend it against the Alien Registration Act. This measure resulted in the leadership of the Communist Party being imprisoned. The legislation was eventually declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court for essentially outlawing free speech.
Apt also mounted the legal challenge to the McCarran Internal Security Act, which made it illegal to belong to the Communist Party or any of the 200 organizations claimed by the government to be "Communist Fronts". Abt called the McCarran Act as a "blueprint of American fascism". Over the next thirty years Apt represented thousands of individual clients who had lost their jobs because of this legislation.
During his interrogation by the Dallas Police in November 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald requested the services of John Abt. He is recorded as saying: "I want that attorney in New York, Mr. Abt. I don't know him personally but I know about a case that he handled some years ago, where he represented the people who had violated the Smith Act... I don't know him personally, but that is the attorney I want... If I can't get him, then I may get the American Civil Liberties Union to send me an attorney." However, Abt was on holiday in Connecticut and later told reporters that he had received no request either from Oswald or from anyone on his behalf to represent him, before he was shot dead by Jack Ruby."
See also this award winning documentary on Americans who were "premature anti-fascists," in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade fighting the fascists in Spain - Franco's forces were assisted by the Nazis and to a lesser degree, Mussolini's Italian fascists.
This documentary examines the experiences of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, using interviews with survivors more than 50 years later. First, the film sets the context with the rise of Fascism. Then, in 1936, Spain's military revolts against the elected government, and the U.S. and Europe agree not to intervene. In response, volunteers snuck past border guards into Spain to fight with the Republicans. The men and women veterans describe the perils of reaching Spain, limited training, responsibilities of command thrust on the very young, deprivations of a soldier's life, lack of matériel, horrible rates of casualties, and ultimate vindication at the end of World War II.
The section of this post Former CIA Agent Comments, first sentence Grover Proctor is underlined signifying a link, that link presents an article by Grover Proctor, The JFK Assassination, The Raleigh Call. This sentence, "Victor Marchetti , a former CIA agent, told researcher Grover Proctor that he believed that Oswald, in making the call to Raleigh, was following a standard set of tradecraft practices." Mr. Marchetti was no small time player, parted company with CIA made some history by writing a book about the agency which was the first one censored by CIA. Having achieved the position of Special Assistant to the Deputy Director of CIA Richard Helms and later a vocal critic of the CIA and the Israel lobby in the US.
I read the Raleigh Call story, the sentence above leads one to believe that Oswald did in fact attempt to make the call but the call was never put through and the story reads in a way to confirm that fact. If CIA had "bum doped" Oswald by instructing him to call "Hurt" if he found himself in deep trouble would this indicate CIA was abandoning their Patsy. The logic seems to follow, however might the possibility also exist that the unreliable info on Hurt might indicate CIA's actions here would be the same in the case that Oswald had been the shooter? I think not.
One problem I see is if this were the case why did Jack Ruby kill Oswald? The obvious path for Oswald, had he lived, would have been being found guilty of the crime or would he have been found guilty?
CIA could leave nothing to chance, if Oswald wasn't the shooter and he had to go away!
As I get closer to 80 it seems like the CIA can always leave things to chance. Think of the crimes associated with the agency since 1963 and what the consequences were. The FBI and the IRS do what they want or what they are told to do. What benefits to the CIA were derived from the assassination? Maybe a few Joint Chiefs of Staff derived some satisfaction.
Ed while I realize how unpopular and distasteful my opinion on who benefited the most from the JFK murder is I'll stand by it until proven wrong or substantially convinced otherwise.
Would you not suppose that the Head of CIA Counter Intelligence, one JJ Angleton who, and the proof does exist, impeded or otherwise interfered with the FBI investigation of one L.H. Oswald, an later lied to one congressional investigation after another to cover up the truth about his involvement. This is but one reason, never forget JFK was hell bent to dissolve CIA. So you ask for a benefit, I think this Fact is one of the best that could be conceived. .
Now for that unpopular distasteful stuff, I'm very sure many feel about this other opinion I have. I refer to about my opinion about JJ Angleton aiding Israel in obtaining surreptitiously highly enriched U-235 from the NUMEC Corp with the aid of Zalmon Shaprio.
I could never make this stuff up and I do know quite a bit about the incident.
However if you could fill me in on those other crimes I will be more than glad to look at them.
I have wondered for years why CIA escaped scot-free from it's days of running. Heroin (Vietnam), pot and cocaine into this country? Only the players died or vanished and pretty large group got pardoned. See Iran Contra affair and Bill Barr's involvement.
So you tell me who benefited the most, "at the time of the murder". By the way I happen to hurtling toward my75th birthday, you old timer.
I always read your comments. It seems to me I once disagreed with your ideas on something but, at the same time, felt your opinion was certainly as thoughtful as mine and I did not reply. I do not know who was behind the assassination. My greatest interest is in the mechanics of the shooting. The biggest remaining question is the throat wound. Back to the CIA, the whipping boy for most associated with this site. Without doubt the major recurring names are related to Oswald. Oswald, however, probably was not familiar with many above the Phillips level. I scarcely see the name David Morales among those discussed by so many contributors. I do not know that Oswald knew Morales, but he may have. I find 11-22-63 to be the turning point in American history. However, whatever crap the CIA has done in the intervening years is probably only an escalation of unsavory things the U.S. government and all governments have done in earlier times. The absence of Kennedy as a leader did not lead to a yellow brick road. Therefore, the murder of Kennedy, aside from being immoral, was stupid. Your thoughts on Israel reflect things I've been told by people who lived in Israel. I do not find them distasteful. I find them possible. Why did the CIA escape scot-free? Because the government always does. What happened to Lois Lerner?
This thing here, the JFK mystery ,is quite the story and Jeff has sunken his teeth into it like a pit bull. I'm loving this stuff for the most part but I do get frustrated from time to time. Patience has never been my strong suite and before I retired the younger crowd there went from calling me the "philosopher" to calling me "Grumpa", I found after 911 that I was getting more and more concerned about the direction the country was going. Turns out I feel vindicated. The Patriot Act needs to be repealed immediately, IMHO.
I try to make myself clear about my thoughts on Israel. Huge numbers of individuals who are Jewish are very troubled by the actions of their government. This right wing government is the source of my dissatisfaction with Israel, what upsets me most is the kid glove treatment my government bestows on Israel when instead I feel Israeli leaders need to dressed down, a stern reprimand. No one in America need feel they owe Israel anything. If the government wants to owe anyone for anything, the native Americans would be a great place to start.
" the murder of Kennedy, besides being immoral, stupid . . ."
Ed I firmly believe it also was a message to anyone who had any ideas about screwing with the CIA.
It seems I've heard it said that one should never argue about religion or politics. Israel encompasses both. I recognize that Israel seems to receive more recognition from the U.S. government than its size or population would warrant. The reason should be obvious and the reason always has to do with political benefit. Every thing the government here does is always for political benefit. Assisting foreign nations is never the result of altruism but always the result of concrete benefit for someone. The same could even be said for our historical achievements like the Marshall Plan.
You may be correct about messing with the CIA. The CIA is not merely three distinct initials. There are associations with the nebulous CIA which may, to some extent or other, be the final straw in putting the assassination in motion.
Didn’t Lee call Ruth Paine that evening? Asked her to call Abt and asked after Marina and children.
Historian Steve Gillon relayed a story in History Channel's "Lee Harvey Oswald: 48 Hours to Live" where Oswald called Ruth Paine twice, one call right after the other, and repeated the same statements almost verbatim. https://streamable.com/nt5rh0
God this is mysterious. Makes one’s head spin and want to know the truth.
Great read
Re Hurt: text says that Hurt claimed that he had not done any counterintelligence work after leaving the Army in 1954, but the photo shows Hurt and other soldiers at a graduation ceremony on June 18, 1957.
Yes, thanks. It occurred to me later that she was probably the source of that information. Conceivably it is in her testimony too. Have to check.
Now I’ve checked.early in vol 3 of WC Hearings Ruth Paine says that Lee called her twice first time around 3:30 to ask her to call Abt. The second time around 9 in the evening to talk to Marina. Not happy that she was not still there.
"Oswald's Final Phone Call"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsItiPfnzLI&t=3s
A really great account of the phone calls. Thanks!!
I reported to the FBI that a friend and Confidential Source overheard a conversation in Quito Ecuador, at the time of the assassination a friend of the family, a Navy Commander over his strong radio saying "Dallas... can you see the motorcade... Is it over yet?" I believe it will come out in the documentary of my knowledge of the plot to kill President Kennedy. The FBI secretary at Tampa Headquarters in 91 who copied her written statement was impressed because her father was AID/CIA in South America.
From recent talks with my friend it is clear that Commander May was Naval Intelligence because he was disappointed when Che was assassinated because he was expected to interrogate him.
Have to dissent on the notion that it is "bizarre" the FBI and Hoover - or is that redundant in 1963/64? - had no interest in Oswald's "communist ties," since the FBI was paying Oswald to inform on the anti-Castro and pro-Castro groups, and to keep them advised about attempts to run guns to Cuba, they would have been investigating themselves!
See also Marina Oswald Porter's September 17, 1997 letter to the Assassinations Records Review Board, where she states she is convinced Oswald informed on the Lawrence Miller - Donnell Whittier armed robbery of a National Guard armory in Terrell, Texas (arrested on November 18, 1963, later convicted) and that he visited the Dallas FBI offices the week of the assassination, not to "make threats" to the FBI, but warn them of threats to JFK.
Here's Hosty's wiki bio, this perpetrates the nonsense about Oswald "meeting Kostikov /Kostin" in Mexico City, but that's par for the course on Wikipedia.
Part 1:
https://www.kennedysandking.com/content/will-the-real-wikipedia-please-stand-up
Part 2:
https://www.kennedysandking.com/content/the-real-wikipedia-part-two-please-mr-wales-remain-seated
Addendum:
https://www.kennedysandking.com/content/part-two-addendum-fernandez-and-the-38-smith-and-wesson
Part 3:
https://www.kennedysandking.com/content/the-real-wikipedia-the-wikipedia-fraud-pt-3-wales-covers-up-for-the-warren-commission
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_P._Hosty
LOL, Oswald was an FBI informant, as were many of the so-called "communist contacts" he knew, judging by later revelations. Possibly Oswald had realized he was being framed as a shooter (he shot no one at all that day) and figured he could divulge some of what he knew about the most likely plotters against both himself and JFK.
Naturally Oswald would want to contact John Abt, an attorney who had defended hundreds of victims of the unconstitutional McCarran Act, and victims of the unconstitutional Smith Act, besides helping build the labor movement through the CIO.
In the 1930s as fascists rose to power in Germany, Italy, and Spain, as well as organizing American fascist sympathizers, it was the Communist Party of the United States of America and other communists, mostly Trotskyists, and leftists who stood up against them, including as members of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade in the Spanish Civil War. The American right-wing supported the fascists in Europe, vilified the popular US president Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and hoped to install a fascist regime in the then apartheid state of the USA. American corporations were stubbornly collaborating with Hitler throughout the 1930s, and some even after Pearl Harbor.
https://spartacus-educational.com/USAabtJ.htm
Excerpt: "After leaving the Agricultural Adjustment Administration Abt held posts in the Works Projects Administration (WPA) and the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). In 1937 he became chief counsel to the Senate Civil Liberties Committee, under Robert La Follette, investigating corporate espionage against the Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO).
In 1938 Abt became chief counsel to Sidney Hillman, president of the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America (ACWA). For the next ten years, Abt was Hillman's main political operative within the CIO. According to Michael Myerson: "He (Apt) first conceived the notion of political action committees (PACs) and established CIO-PAC (for which he also served as chief counsel) to build organized labor's political influence."
After the Second World War Abt became chief counsel of the Progressive Party, the vehicle for Henry Wallace, who was its candidate in the 1948 Presidential Elections. In 1950 Apt and Vito Marcantonio were hired by the American Communist Party to defend it against the Alien Registration Act. This measure resulted in the leadership of the Communist Party being imprisoned. The legislation was eventually declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court for essentially outlawing free speech.
Apt also mounted the legal challenge to the McCarran Internal Security Act, which made it illegal to belong to the Communist Party or any of the 200 organizations claimed by the government to be "Communist Fronts". Abt called the McCarran Act as a "blueprint of American fascism". Over the next thirty years Apt represented thousands of individual clients who had lost their jobs because of this legislation.
During his interrogation by the Dallas Police in November 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald requested the services of John Abt. He is recorded as saying: "I want that attorney in New York, Mr. Abt. I don't know him personally but I know about a case that he handled some years ago, where he represented the people who had violated the Smith Act... I don't know him personally, but that is the attorney I want... If I can't get him, then I may get the American Civil Liberties Union to send me an attorney." However, Abt was on holiday in Connecticut and later told reporters that he had received no request either from Oswald or from anyone on his behalf to represent him, before he was shot dead by Jack Ruby."
See also this award winning documentary on Americans who were "premature anti-fascists," in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade fighting the fascists in Spain - Franco's forces were assisted by the Nazis and to a lesser degree, Mussolini's Italian fascists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_G_JkaTlBU
14,745 views Sep 27, 2022 #freemovies #fascism #documentaries
This documentary examines the experiences of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, using interviews with survivors more than 50 years later. First, the film sets the context with the rise of Fascism. Then, in 1936, Spain's military revolts against the elected government, and the U.S. and Europe agree not to intervene. In response, volunteers snuck past border guards into Spain to fight with the Republicans. The men and women veterans describe the perils of reaching Spain, limited training, responsibilities of command thrust on the very young, deprivations of a soldier's life, lack of matériel, horrible rates of casualties, and ultimate vindication at the end of World War II.
The section of this post Former CIA Agent Comments, first sentence Grover Proctor is underlined signifying a link, that link presents an article by Grover Proctor, The JFK Assassination, The Raleigh Call. This sentence, "Victor Marchetti , a former CIA agent, told researcher Grover Proctor that he believed that Oswald, in making the call to Raleigh, was following a standard set of tradecraft practices." Mr. Marchetti was no small time player, parted company with CIA made some history by writing a book about the agency which was the first one censored by CIA. Having achieved the position of Special Assistant to the Deputy Director of CIA Richard Helms and later a vocal critic of the CIA and the Israel lobby in the US.
I read the Raleigh Call story, the sentence above leads one to believe that Oswald did in fact attempt to make the call but the call was never put through and the story reads in a way to confirm that fact. If CIA had "bum doped" Oswald by instructing him to call "Hurt" if he found himself in deep trouble would this indicate CIA was abandoning their Patsy. The logic seems to follow, however might the possibility also exist that the unreliable info on Hurt might indicate CIA's actions here would be the same in the case that Oswald had been the shooter? I think not.
One problem I see is if this were the case why did Jack Ruby kill Oswald? The obvious path for Oswald, had he lived, would have been being found guilty of the crime or would he have been found guilty?
CIA could leave nothing to chance, if Oswald wasn't the shooter and he had to go away!
Thanks to Bill Simpich, I think, and the SS crew.
As I get closer to 80 it seems like the CIA can always leave things to chance. Think of the crimes associated with the agency since 1963 and what the consequences were. The FBI and the IRS do what they want or what they are told to do. What benefits to the CIA were derived from the assassination? Maybe a few Joint Chiefs of Staff derived some satisfaction.
Ed while I realize how unpopular and distasteful my opinion on who benefited the most from the JFK murder is I'll stand by it until proven wrong or substantially convinced otherwise.
Would you not suppose that the Head of CIA Counter Intelligence, one JJ Angleton who, and the proof does exist, impeded or otherwise interfered with the FBI investigation of one L.H. Oswald, an later lied to one congressional investigation after another to cover up the truth about his involvement. This is but one reason, never forget JFK was hell bent to dissolve CIA. So you ask for a benefit, I think this Fact is one of the best that could be conceived. .
Now for that unpopular distasteful stuff, I'm very sure many feel about this other opinion I have. I refer to about my opinion about JJ Angleton aiding Israel in obtaining surreptitiously highly enriched U-235 from the NUMEC Corp with the aid of Zalmon Shaprio.
I could never make this stuff up and I do know quite a bit about the incident.
However if you could fill me in on those other crimes I will be more than glad to look at them.
I have wondered for years why CIA escaped scot-free from it's days of running. Heroin (Vietnam), pot and cocaine into this country? Only the players died or vanished and pretty large group got pardoned. See Iran Contra affair and Bill Barr's involvement.
So you tell me who benefited the most, "at the time of the murder". By the way I happen to hurtling toward my75th birthday, you old timer.
I always read your comments. It seems to me I once disagreed with your ideas on something but, at the same time, felt your opinion was certainly as thoughtful as mine and I did not reply. I do not know who was behind the assassination. My greatest interest is in the mechanics of the shooting. The biggest remaining question is the throat wound. Back to the CIA, the whipping boy for most associated with this site. Without doubt the major recurring names are related to Oswald. Oswald, however, probably was not familiar with many above the Phillips level. I scarcely see the name David Morales among those discussed by so many contributors. I do not know that Oswald knew Morales, but he may have. I find 11-22-63 to be the turning point in American history. However, whatever crap the CIA has done in the intervening years is probably only an escalation of unsavory things the U.S. government and all governments have done in earlier times. The absence of Kennedy as a leader did not lead to a yellow brick road. Therefore, the murder of Kennedy, aside from being immoral, was stupid. Your thoughts on Israel reflect things I've been told by people who lived in Israel. I do not find them distasteful. I find them possible. Why did the CIA escape scot-free? Because the government always does. What happened to Lois Lerner?
This thing here, the JFK mystery ,is quite the story and Jeff has sunken his teeth into it like a pit bull. I'm loving this stuff for the most part but I do get frustrated from time to time. Patience has never been my strong suite and before I retired the younger crowd there went from calling me the "philosopher" to calling me "Grumpa", I found after 911 that I was getting more and more concerned about the direction the country was going. Turns out I feel vindicated. The Patriot Act needs to be repealed immediately, IMHO.
I try to make myself clear about my thoughts on Israel. Huge numbers of individuals who are Jewish are very troubled by the actions of their government. This right wing government is the source of my dissatisfaction with Israel, what upsets me most is the kid glove treatment my government bestows on Israel when instead I feel Israeli leaders need to dressed down, a stern reprimand. No one in America need feel they owe Israel anything. If the government wants to owe anyone for anything, the native Americans would be a great place to start.
" the murder of Kennedy, besides being immoral, stupid . . ."
Ed I firmly believe it also was a message to anyone who had any ideas about screwing with the CIA.
Later on down the road.
It seems I've heard it said that one should never argue about religion or politics. Israel encompasses both. I recognize that Israel seems to receive more recognition from the U.S. government than its size or population would warrant. The reason should be obvious and the reason always has to do with political benefit. Every thing the government here does is always for political benefit. Assisting foreign nations is never the result of altruism but always the result of concrete benefit for someone. The same could even be said for our historical achievements like the Marshall Plan.
You may be correct about messing with the CIA. The CIA is not merely three distinct initials. There are associations with the nebulous CIA which may, to some extent or other, be the final straw in putting the assassination in motion.