i dont think it is materially important fact if Landis says he placed the bullet on the original "stretcher" or "gurney". he may have not been in the ER (traumu room 1) when JFK was first wheeled in. Also, there is not uniform recollection on this issue from Parkland witnesses. There are other more important issues to vet. -IMHO
I interviewed Gary Louck several times and found his story not credible. The fact that Jim Robenalt's firm represents several defense contractors is not surprising. He works at a prominent law firm. So did I. sounds like you may be reading too much Russ Baker...
i dont we can expect Paul to know the difference between a gurney and a stretcher. Moreover, he may not have been in the ER room as soon as the President was wheeled in so could have missed any transfer of the body to the ER table. -FWIW
Love this podcast and Jefferson Morley is absolutely top notch.
However, I was very disappointed that they did not question Rosenalt on his personal connections to defense contractors and potential relationships to three letter agencies. His time as a lawyer he and his firm worked with multiple companies that were defense contractors. Not saying he is lying, I just think these are obvious questions that should be asked, particularly because of the prior earlier story from Sam Kinney’s possible handler Gary Luchs (sp), who may have been killed. Why not at least ask him about his connections?
I tend not to be conspiratorial but it seems possible that the CIA (or some related agency) has been pushing this same type of story for some time either to muddy the waters or as a limited hangout or both.
Thompson shows a picture of the bullet found at Parkland (given to him by some medical person) with a hotel key for perspective. It's in both his first book (Six Seconds in Dallas) which Landis read as well as his latest book Last Second iin Dallas. This looks nothing like CE399. What's up with that?
From James Rowley, Chief US Secret Service to Mr. Belin, General Counsel WC
After the death of President Kennedy, SA Hill was directed by Mr . Kenneth
O'Donnell to obtain a casket so that the body of the President could be
transported back to Washington as quickly as possible . The casket arrived
at approximately 1 :40 p .m ., and was wheeled directly into the emergency
room. The President's body was removed from the stretcher, upon which it
had remained since his arrival at the hospital, and placed in the casket .
It really doesn't matter if Landis put his bullet on the metal exam table or the gurney that Kennedy was brought into Trauma room 1 on, because neither one can show a plausible way for the bullet to end up on a total different gurney down by the elevator.
But I am limited by the statement that Landis makes in his book and the fact that him and his cohort Robinalt are doubling down on it. And if he is mistaken about one thing, then what else could he be mistaken about?
From The Landis book:
"As I entered—or, more to the point, was pushed into—the trauma room, the president’s lifeless body was already being lifted off the gurney and placed onto a white cotton blanket that covered the surface of a stainless-steel examination table in the middle of the room."
From the UPI Archives November 30,1963, by Bryce Miller
One week ago the assassin's bullets struck President Kennedy.
It is now possible to reveal the step-by-step struggle of a team of 15 doctors to save his life though they knew from the start it was hopeless. Surgical teams sprang into action.
The operating table in Room No. 1 had been shoved out of the way. The doctors were moving so swiftly they did not want to take time to lift the President off the cart.
Dr. McClennand, Carrico, Perry, Clark, Jenkins, Jones, Bashour, Peters, Giesecke, White and now Zedlitz (Thanks) and especially Nurse Bowron saw the President on a gurney, stretcher, cart or carriage. In medical jargon these terms on synonymous.
Nobody said metal exam table, except for Duchouquette and of course Landis.
For arguments sake, let's say Landis misremembered amidst all the chaos and it was the gurney that he placed the bullet on.
From his book:
"I removed the bullet from my pocket, and reaching out over the examination table, I carefully placed it on the white cotton blanket next to the president’s left shoe.... in a small wrinkle in the cotton blanket. "
Then the doctors elevate the President's feet and Dr. White performs a cutdown on the right foot and Dr. Curtis attempts a cutdown on the left ankle. So the feet are elevated and 2 doctors are working on his feet and nobody reports seeing a bullet.
After the body is moved into the coffin, Nurse Bowron, another nurse and an orderly take the bloody sheets off the President's gurney and pick up the sheets from the floor and Nurse Bowron deposits them into a linen hamper. The clean gurney is then pushed across the hall into Trauma room 2.
What happened to the bullet? Did somebody else pick it up and take it down to the other gurney next to the elevator? Is the bullet found on the gurney by the elevator a different bullet from the Landis bullet, even though they might look the same? Did the Landis bullet get accidently thrown away in the bloody sheets?
I know I should just be happy about the Landis bullet because it means a second shooter, Yippee.
Some have questioned Paul Landis’ statement that he saw President Kennedy being moved from the stretcher on which he was brought into Trauma Room 1 — onto a cart that was already in place, in the Trauma Room. Although eye witness recollections of those present do differ, there are at least two Parkland doctors who corroborate Mr. Landis’ recollection.
The first is that of Robert Duchouquette, MD, who states, “As soon as he [President Kennedy] was placed from the gurney onto the emergency table, it was obvious from his ghastly head wound that he was DOA, and regardless of all the impressive medical acumen and experience present, there was no hope of restoring his life.” [‘We Were There: Revelations from the Dallas Doctors Who Attended to JFK on November 22, 1963,’ by Allen Childs, MD, Page 39].
A second supportive recollection is from William Zedlitz, MD, who relates, “As I passed through the door, I glanced at the clock on the far wall and it indicated it was twenty minutes until one o’clock. In the center of the trauma room and lying on the gurney unclothed was a large man. At that moment I recognized President John F. Kennedy as the man. There was another gurney pushed against the left wall of the room that contained the discarded clothes and suit remnants of the president (they had been cut off him as is standard procedure in such cases).” [‘We Were There: Revelations from the Dallas Doctors Who Attended to JFK on November 22, 1963,’ by Allen Childs, MD, Pages 67-68].
There was some discussion about Nurse Phyllis Hall seeing a bullet by the President's head which might add some credence to the bullet Landis says he found. In a March 2012 interview with The Sixth Floor Museum, Nurse Hall, Does Not mention seeing a bullet. (full interview below)
Her 2012 interview is interesting to say the least. She definitely thinks there was a conspiracy, that the rear head shot came from the front and that the body was tampered with after it left Parkland. She is witness # 12, that said that the President was on the gurney he was brought in on. This goes against the story Landis is telling about the President being moved to the exam table.
In 2013 Nurse Hall talks about seeing a bullet that she didn't mention in 2012. It had a pointed tip, it was either on the gurney or embedded just under the skin behind the President's ear, and it didn't match the bullet in the government's evidence. She has been all over the map with her memory of the events back then. Her whole remembrance could be written off as not credible or parts of it could be true.
In response to Larry's question on Zoom about what happened to the bloody sheets from the gurney, please see Nurse Bowron's WC testimony below. She put them into a linen hamper.
Mr. Specter. Were you present when his body was removed from the stretcher? (into the coffin)
Miss Bowron. Yes ; I was.
Mr. Specter. And did you observe the stretcher from which his body was removed to be the same stretcher that he had been brought into trauma room No. 1 on?
Miss Bowron. Yes.
Mr. Specter. That's the stretcher you took out there for him?
Miss Bowron. Yes.
Mr. Specter. And what sheets were present on the stretcher or in the adjacent area used in the care of President Kennedy?
Miss Bowron. The sheets that had already been on the stretcher when we took it out with the President on. When we came back after all the work had been done on him—so that Mrs. Kennedy could have a look before he was, you know, really moved into the coffin. We wrapped some extra sheets around his head so it wouldn't look so bad and there were some sheets on the floor so that nobody would step in the blood. Those were put down during all the work that was going on so the doctors wouldn't slip.
Mr. Specter. What was done with all of the sheets on the stretcher and on the floor area there?
Miss Bowron. They were all gathered up and put into a linen scape.
Mr. Specter. Did you gather them up yourself?
Miss Bowron. Yes. Mr. Specter. All of them?
Miss Bowron. Yes ; with the help of Miss Henchliffe.
Mr. Specter. And did the two of you put them in the linen hamper ?
Miss Bowron. Yes ; I put them in the linen hamper myself.
Mr. Specter. What was done with the stretcher then?
Miss Bowron. The stretcher was then wheeled across into trauma room No. 2. which was empty.
Mr. Specter. Was there anything on the stretcher at all when it was wheeled
into trauma room No. 2?
Miss Bowron. Not that we noticed, except the rubber mattress that was left on it.
Mr. Specter. Would you have noticed anything had anything been on that stretcher?
Miss Bowron. Yes ; I think so.
Mr. Specter. And where was the stretcher when you last saw it?
Miss Bowron. Being wheeled across into trauma room 2.
The bullet story makes sense although I’m having some difficulty following the path of the bullet after Landis claims to have placed it by JFK’s foot to where it is discovered on a gurney in the hallway. Gurneys, stretchers and trauma tables are seemingly conflated. Further Landis’ certain ID of the particular bullet would not begin to cut it in a courtroom.
So while the locale of his discovery of the magic bullet is helpful in supporting the multiple shooter theory it still leaves significant questions even if 100% true. I would feel better about the story if Landis took ownership of some of the SS failures. Drinking scotch after little sleep then functioning at the requisite level? Having 2 non alcoholic night caps in a bar at 2am? Color me skeptical. It explains my he took so long to come forward.
As proof of Kellerman's WC testimony "A flurry of shells came into the car" Another bullet was found and it was not the one Paul Landis found. The 2 halves of a bullet were also found on the floor of the front seat. Ford who moved the back wound up several inches to make the Magic bullet theory believable was probably clueless about much of the hidden evidence and just said, read Case Closed
As someone who knows very little about the JFK security detail on that day, head count, hours on duty, and their stories of the days immediately after the murder but one does know what long hours on shift duty can do to the human mind and body with out the stress levels they experienced, I found myself engrossed in all the comments from everyone.
The inconsistent autopsy reports, bullet evidence and inconsistencies with prior motorcade procedures, open vehicles, crowds lining the streets, open windows in office buildings, the public along the over pass, a late change in the route, the controversy over exactly who associated with the Federal Government was in Dallas and who wasn't, these issues by themselves are spectacularly disturbing when we consider the degree of hate directed at JFK by so many of the military , the CIA and individuals like the "lady in the flowered dress", J. Edgar Hoover.
These facts set a dark tone for anyone objective enough to ask serious questions. If I thought of this I'm sure , you folks gathered for this program, CIA, everyone they had any control over plus anyone who had a common interest in seeing JFK gone realized they must remain on control of the flow of information. Something they have fought for control since day one. This behavior is very telling.
The courts, the government officials and agencies who have been responsible for aiding in the deception of the American public in these matters are ignoring their responsibility to explain the lies CIA and all others have committed to. The new evidence and documents exhibiting a series of stories, events and sworn testimonies by CIA and the government revealed they have lied about very sensitive aspects of an investigation never officially ordered. Astonishing.
Great stuff gentlemen.
BTW & FYI does everyone know who Leonard Anthony Leo, lawyer born 1965, and conservative activist is.
For context illuminating the Paul Landis story I highly highly recommend Chapter Two of William Matson Law’s book ‘In the Eye of History’, 2nd edition (2015), as opposed to 1st edition (2005).
The second edition includes an interview with a reluctant witness Law refers to as The White House Witness (TWHW). TWHW claims at the moment of JFK’s assassination to have been a young man on JFK’s “Communication Staff” who was then ordered by a Secret Service agent to assist in driving the presidential and backup limousines from Parkland Hospital to Love Field (pg 59). Ultimately TWHW was able to observe the pattern of blood splatter across the presidential limousine showing blood, skull, and brain matter sprayed across the rear trunk (pg 60).
Most importantly however TWHW recounts how he was threatened and intimidated by Secret Service agents to remain silent about what he saw (pg 67).
The book also has quite a bit of late life commentary from Sibert and O’Neil.
i dont think it is materially important fact if Landis says he placed the bullet on the original "stretcher" or "gurney". he may have not been in the ER (traumu room 1) when JFK was first wheeled in. Also, there is not uniform recollection on this issue from Parkland witnesses. There are other more important issues to vet. -IMHO
I interviewed Gary Louck several times and found his story not credible. The fact that Jim Robenalt's firm represents several defense contractors is not surprising. He works at a prominent law firm. So did I. sounds like you may be reading too much Russ Baker...
i dont we can expect Paul to know the difference between a gurney and a stretcher. Moreover, he may not have been in the ER room as soon as the President was wheeled in so could have missed any transfer of the body to the ER table. -FWIW
Love this podcast and Jefferson Morley is absolutely top notch.
However, I was very disappointed that they did not question Rosenalt on his personal connections to defense contractors and potential relationships to three letter agencies. His time as a lawyer he and his firm worked with multiple companies that were defense contractors. Not saying he is lying, I just think these are obvious questions that should be asked, particularly because of the prior earlier story from Sam Kinney’s possible handler Gary Luchs (sp), who may have been killed. Why not at least ask him about his connections?
I tend not to be conspiratorial but it seems possible that the CIA (or some related agency) has been pushing this same type of story for some time either to muddy the waters or as a limited hangout or both.
Thompson shows a picture of the bullet found at Parkland (given to him by some medical person) with a hotel key for perspective. It's in both his first book (Six Seconds in Dallas) which Landis read as well as his latest book Last Second iin Dallas. This looks nothing like CE399. What's up with that?
Once more with feeling.
NEW
From James Rowley, Chief US Secret Service to Mr. Belin, General Counsel WC
After the death of President Kennedy, SA Hill was directed by Mr . Kenneth
O'Donnell to obtain a casket so that the body of the President could be
transported back to Washington as quickly as possible . The casket arrived
at approximately 1 :40 p .m ., and was wheeled directly into the emergency
room. The President's body was removed from the stretcher, upon which it
had remained since his arrival at the hospital, and placed in the casket .
It really doesn't matter if Landis put his bullet on the metal exam table or the gurney that Kennedy was brought into Trauma room 1 on, because neither one can show a plausible way for the bullet to end up on a total different gurney down by the elevator.
But I am limited by the statement that Landis makes in his book and the fact that him and his cohort Robinalt are doubling down on it. And if he is mistaken about one thing, then what else could he be mistaken about?
From The Landis book:
"As I entered—or, more to the point, was pushed into—the trauma room, the president’s lifeless body was already being lifted off the gurney and placed onto a white cotton blanket that covered the surface of a stainless-steel examination table in the middle of the room."
From the UPI Archives November 30,1963, by Bryce Miller
One week ago the assassin's bullets struck President Kennedy.
It is now possible to reveal the step-by-step struggle of a team of 15 doctors to save his life though they knew from the start it was hopeless. Surgical teams sprang into action.
The operating table in Room No. 1 had been shoved out of the way. The doctors were moving so swiftly they did not want to take time to lift the President off the cart.
Dr. McClennand, Carrico, Perry, Clark, Jenkins, Jones, Bashour, Peters, Giesecke, White and now Zedlitz (Thanks) and especially Nurse Bowron saw the President on a gurney, stretcher, cart or carriage. In medical jargon these terms on synonymous.
Nobody said metal exam table, except for Duchouquette and of course Landis.
For arguments sake, let's say Landis misremembered amidst all the chaos and it was the gurney that he placed the bullet on.
From his book:
"I removed the bullet from my pocket, and reaching out over the examination table, I carefully placed it on the white cotton blanket next to the president’s left shoe.... in a small wrinkle in the cotton blanket. "
Then the doctors elevate the President's feet and Dr. White performs a cutdown on the right foot and Dr. Curtis attempts a cutdown on the left ankle. So the feet are elevated and 2 doctors are working on his feet and nobody reports seeing a bullet.
After the body is moved into the coffin, Nurse Bowron, another nurse and an orderly take the bloody sheets off the President's gurney and pick up the sheets from the floor and Nurse Bowron deposits them into a linen hamper. The clean gurney is then pushed across the hall into Trauma room 2.
What happened to the bullet? Did somebody else pick it up and take it down to the other gurney next to the elevator? Is the bullet found on the gurney by the elevator a different bullet from the Landis bullet, even though they might look the same? Did the Landis bullet get accidently thrown away in the bloody sheets?
I know I should just be happy about the Landis bullet because it means a second shooter, Yippee.
Some have questioned Paul Landis’ statement that he saw President Kennedy being moved from the stretcher on which he was brought into Trauma Room 1 — onto a cart that was already in place, in the Trauma Room. Although eye witness recollections of those present do differ, there are at least two Parkland doctors who corroborate Mr. Landis’ recollection.
The first is that of Robert Duchouquette, MD, who states, “As soon as he [President Kennedy] was placed from the gurney onto the emergency table, it was obvious from his ghastly head wound that he was DOA, and regardless of all the impressive medical acumen and experience present, there was no hope of restoring his life.” [‘We Were There: Revelations from the Dallas Doctors Who Attended to JFK on November 22, 1963,’ by Allen Childs, MD, Page 39].
A second supportive recollection is from William Zedlitz, MD, who relates, “As I passed through the door, I glanced at the clock on the far wall and it indicated it was twenty minutes until one o’clock. In the center of the trauma room and lying on the gurney unclothed was a large man. At that moment I recognized President John F. Kennedy as the man. There was another gurney pushed against the left wall of the room that contained the discarded clothes and suit remnants of the president (they had been cut off him as is standard procedure in such cases).” [‘We Were There: Revelations from the Dallas Doctors Who Attended to JFK on November 22, 1963,’ by Allen Childs, MD, Pages 67-68].
There was some discussion about Nurse Phyllis Hall seeing a bullet by the President's head which might add some credence to the bullet Landis says he found. In a March 2012 interview with The Sixth Floor Museum, Nurse Hall, Does Not mention seeing a bullet. (full interview below)
Her 2012 interview is interesting to say the least. She definitely thinks there was a conspiracy, that the rear head shot came from the front and that the body was tampered with after it left Parkland. She is witness # 12, that said that the President was on the gurney he was brought in on. This goes against the story Landis is telling about the President being moved to the exam table.
In 2013 Nurse Hall talks about seeing a bullet that she didn't mention in 2012. It had a pointed tip, it was either on the gurney or embedded just under the skin behind the President's ear, and it didn't match the bullet in the government's evidence. She has been all over the map with her memory of the events back then. Her whole remembrance could be written off as not credible or parts of it could be true.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zxgYrc7-Zs
In response to Larry's question on Zoom about what happened to the bloody sheets from the gurney, please see Nurse Bowron's WC testimony below. She put them into a linen hamper.
Mr. Specter. Were you present when his body was removed from the stretcher? (into the coffin)
Miss Bowron. Yes ; I was.
Mr. Specter. And did you observe the stretcher from which his body was removed to be the same stretcher that he had been brought into trauma room No. 1 on?
Miss Bowron. Yes.
Mr. Specter. That's the stretcher you took out there for him?
Miss Bowron. Yes.
Mr. Specter. And what sheets were present on the stretcher or in the adjacent area used in the care of President Kennedy?
Miss Bowron. The sheets that had already been on the stretcher when we took it out with the President on. When we came back after all the work had been done on him—so that Mrs. Kennedy could have a look before he was, you know, really moved into the coffin. We wrapped some extra sheets around his head so it wouldn't look so bad and there were some sheets on the floor so that nobody would step in the blood. Those were put down during all the work that was going on so the doctors wouldn't slip.
Mr. Specter. What was done with all of the sheets on the stretcher and on the floor area there?
Miss Bowron. They were all gathered up and put into a linen scape.
Mr. Specter. Did you gather them up yourself?
Miss Bowron. Yes. Mr. Specter. All of them?
Miss Bowron. Yes ; with the help of Miss Henchliffe.
Mr. Specter. And did the two of you put them in the linen hamper ?
Miss Bowron. Yes ; I put them in the linen hamper myself.
Mr. Specter. What was done with the stretcher then?
Miss Bowron. The stretcher was then wheeled across into trauma room No. 2. which was empty.
Mr. Specter. Was there anything on the stretcher at all when it was wheeled
into trauma room No. 2?
Miss Bowron. Not that we noticed, except the rubber mattress that was left on it.
Mr. Specter. Would you have noticed anything had anything been on that stretcher?
Miss Bowron. Yes ; I think so.
Mr. Specter. And where was the stretcher when you last saw it?
Miss Bowron. Being wheeled across into trauma room 2.
The bullet story makes sense although I’m having some difficulty following the path of the bullet after Landis claims to have placed it by JFK’s foot to where it is discovered on a gurney in the hallway. Gurneys, stretchers and trauma tables are seemingly conflated. Further Landis’ certain ID of the particular bullet would not begin to cut it in a courtroom.
So while the locale of his discovery of the magic bullet is helpful in supporting the multiple shooter theory it still leaves significant questions even if 100% true. I would feel better about the story if Landis took ownership of some of the SS failures. Drinking scotch after little sleep then functioning at the requisite level? Having 2 non alcoholic night caps in a bar at 2am? Color me skeptical. It explains my he took so long to come forward.
As proof of Kellerman's WC testimony "A flurry of shells came into the car" Another bullet was found and it was not the one Paul Landis found. The 2 halves of a bullet were also found on the floor of the front seat. Ford who moved the back wound up several inches to make the Magic bullet theory believable was probably clueless about much of the hidden evidence and just said, read Case Closed
https://whowhatwhy.org/politics/government-integrity/navy-doctor-bullet-found-jfks-limousine-never-reported/?fbclid=IwAR04PdpEjrNoPP_Bzrla0ES13gAgwEIrLOwMKykDvSaJAW7_2RT9E3hHuOI
As someone who knows very little about the JFK security detail on that day, head count, hours on duty, and their stories of the days immediately after the murder but one does know what long hours on shift duty can do to the human mind and body with out the stress levels they experienced, I found myself engrossed in all the comments from everyone.
The inconsistent autopsy reports, bullet evidence and inconsistencies with prior motorcade procedures, open vehicles, crowds lining the streets, open windows in office buildings, the public along the over pass, a late change in the route, the controversy over exactly who associated with the Federal Government was in Dallas and who wasn't, these issues by themselves are spectacularly disturbing when we consider the degree of hate directed at JFK by so many of the military , the CIA and individuals like the "lady in the flowered dress", J. Edgar Hoover.
These facts set a dark tone for anyone objective enough to ask serious questions. If I thought of this I'm sure , you folks gathered for this program, CIA, everyone they had any control over plus anyone who had a common interest in seeing JFK gone realized they must remain on control of the flow of information. Something they have fought for control since day one. This behavior is very telling.
The courts, the government officials and agencies who have been responsible for aiding in the deception of the American public in these matters are ignoring their responsibility to explain the lies CIA and all others have committed to. The new evidence and documents exhibiting a series of stories, events and sworn testimonies by CIA and the government revealed they have lied about very sensitive aspects of an investigation never officially ordered. Astonishing.
Great stuff gentlemen.
BTW & FYI does everyone know who Leonard Anthony Leo, lawyer born 1965, and conservative activist is.
For context illuminating the Paul Landis story I highly highly recommend Chapter Two of William Matson Law’s book ‘In the Eye of History’, 2nd edition (2015), as opposed to 1st edition (2005).
The second edition includes an interview with a reluctant witness Law refers to as The White House Witness (TWHW). TWHW claims at the moment of JFK’s assassination to have been a young man on JFK’s “Communication Staff” who was then ordered by a Secret Service agent to assist in driving the presidential and backup limousines from Parkland Hospital to Love Field (pg 59). Ultimately TWHW was able to observe the pattern of blood splatter across the presidential limousine showing blood, skull, and brain matter sprayed across the rear trunk (pg 60).
Most importantly however TWHW recounts how he was threatened and intimidated by Secret Service agents to remain silent about what he saw (pg 67).
The book also has quite a bit of late life commentary from Sibert and O’Neil.
Manchester wrote the detailed book not White.